Author Topic: Need experience  (Read 285 times)

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Offline Fuse

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Need experience
« on: September 08, 2010, 10:01:18 PM »
Hey folks,

I've taken my motorcycle safety course, my theory exam. I'd like to move on to the road test, but... being a pedestrian all my life, I'm really not familiar with traffic. Text book is one thing, application when driving something rather unfamiliar is another.

I personally think it'd be a good idea for me to ride as a passenger on a motorbike, just to get a good feel of the city speed, turns, and it'd be a great opportunity for me to pay attention to traffic signs and make mental notes while being on a bike, without the actual distraction of controlling a bike.

Problem is... I only know one person who rides, and he moved to Calgary. Is there anyone on the board who's willing to volunteer their time to give me a ride here and there, just for the sake of experience? A coffee or meal on me would be no problem, as a return of the favor. If anyone has a better idea, I'd like to consider it too. Basically, a mentor figure on motorcycle riding (esp. cruisers) is what I'm looking for.

For what it's worth, I've ridden as a passenger in the back, but in a different part of the world, with different city speed and traffic laws.

Thanks in advance!


Offline jon

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 08:23:13 AM »
 8)
Welcome to the world of 2 wheelin'  :) Congratulations for taking the course-very wise decision.
 As you prolly learned in bike school, (and I'd also suggest) getting a used small size of bike in the type\style you prefer. You can get insurance and registration for it.

If you need practise, but not sure of the latest rules, get in touch with your course instructor and Alberta Registries. Practise is what you need and riding on the back may give you false perceptions and no realistic reactions. Would not suggest riding on the back of another to gain experience.
 Get a used unit, wear knee and shoulder pads, leather boots, gloves and jacket. If you wipe out at a low rate of speed, in a quiet parking lot - this is the best lesson (my opinion only). If you fall, then get back on and keep practicing. Riding on the back of an experienced rider may not give you a realistic experience, as you will not feel, see nor react to what the experienced rider is already accustomed to.
If you get your self a used unit, let me know and we can join up for your practice.
Do not be intimidated by your lack of experience-challenge yourself. The course exposed you to the real experience, you ought to return for the bike exam there.
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Offline Gerrys02800

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 08:48:47 AM »
Fuse,

As you mentioned, you have taken the safety course and passed the exam. How did you do in the MC course, did the instructors do their job and make you feel comfortable, both in nerves and being on the bike. Did they provide you with the proper training?.  I just ask, because if the instructor(s) can see you do not have the basic skill to even hold up the bike, let alone ride it, they should have refunded your money and sent you home. IMHO, being a passanger, looking over the shoulder of another rider is not going to do you any good. You will not see what the driver has in his/her sight. Be it road signs, a car backing up or the kid that just walked in between 2 parked cars.

You need to be the driver and get the road experience. Lets say I meet you on Sunday, first thing in the am. Your going to be lead rider , down 137 then the back routes right into St. Albert..
Do you feel you could do this ? 

Offline madjak30

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 09:49:35 AM »
Sounds like Fuse is having concerns about the rules of the road in general, not necessarily the normal bike issues.  I would suggest taking Jon's advise and pick up a used cheapo bike to learn on and take him up on the riding mentor offer...the only way to learn the rules is to use them...if you are riding with a more experienced rider, they can give you pointers on where you could improve your skills or where you may have made some mistakes...

I would just pick up something that you are comfortable on and ride it around your neighbourhood...just riding around your residential area will also give you some experience without the added stress of the other vehicles...pretend every intersection is a controlled intersection, and practice your shoulder checks...never just use the mirrors...

Now, I have been assuming that you have a class 5...do you currently have a vehicle license?  or did you go straight for the bike license?  If you have the class 5, it is considered a learners license and you can ride on the streets with a fully licensed rider...otherwise, stick to parking lots an practice until you are comfortable...

Good luck!!

Later.
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Offline Fuse

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 10:18:42 PM »
Thanks for the replies, folks!

First off, yes, I understand that being a back-seat rider is no substitute for being the actual driver. My point remains, however, that's it's only to familiarize myself with what to make note of when actually on the road, on a bike. It'd be safer for me to know what questions to ask before I hop on a bike of my own on the road, even with a mentor. My particular concern is actually how other motorists behave around a motorbike, and how a motorcyclist should behave around other cars. That can be observed in the back seat, and not something I'd like see for myself on my own bike without knowing better (textbooks and parking lots simply won't do). I think of it as an extra step before riding on my own... after all, you won't make someone who's never been a passenger and made appropriate observations, take control of a car on the road, even if just for practice under supervision.

There are certain things that I could see being beneficial to make note of as a passenger, such a when to shift gears, different feels of turning at different speeds, when to shoulder check and safe distance to change lanes... I'm also aware of the "false perceptions", as Jon put it, but I like to think that it's still better than working with nothing.

I don't hold a class 5. Like I've said, I've been a pedestrian/commuter all my life. Most people get their class 5 before they even turn 18 (I'm 23). I've only driven on highways, where signs are minimal. City driving, though at a slower speed, has more rules, most of which is second nature to regular drivers.

As for the course itself... I have to say, while I did learn what I needed to learn from it, different instructors may suit you differently, depending on your personality and their style. I wasn't particularly motivated by the drill sergent, but the two more stoic, patient guys pin-pointed my problems and walked me through them, rather than just yelling at, telling me that I'm doing it wrong. I am allowed to use the program's bikes for my road test, but the catch is, they're all sports bikes, and I'm only familiar (and interested) with the cruisers.

I really appreciate the offers to guide me as a class-6 holder (I really do), but as I haven't purchased a bike yet (still looking for something around 450cc secondhand, cruiser style within my price range... and I have the additional challenge of being 5'6). I'm afraid I'll have to turn them down for now. I was only expecting to be a passenger for the time being. :P Perhaps I'll wait until I've bought my bike, then I'll return for help.

Just a quick question: while it certainly is illegal for me to drive without supervision, no one's going to give me trouble if I'm in an empty parking lot at night (also illegal for me to drive after sunset) or driving during a slow time of the day in a residential neighbourhood, no?

Thanks guys!


Offline Jay Elghea

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 08:15:12 AM »
I think I can see your problem and sympathize.  Although somewhat different, I had a similar problem years ago when I was transfered to Germany.  Although I'd driven cars for most of my life, the German traffic patterns were a total mystery to me - at first.  My solution was to buy an old car and (very tentatively) venture out onto the roads.  It was only a matter of a couple of weeks before I began to understand and be able to predict what other drivers were going to do.

Since you say that you already have your class 6 licence and have mastered the "book-learning" (rules of the road), I'd suggest that you make an effort to find a decent used bike (at this time of year, prices may tend to be a little more reasonable than in the spring, at the beginning of the riding season.) and give it a try on quieter roads, at a time when the traffic is light.  You'll probably surprise yourself with how quickly you begin to see and understand the pattern.  Just be aware of your own limititations and don't be in a hurry to over-extend yourself.
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Offline madjak30

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 09:11:55 AM »
So, you don't hold any license but have done the written test and taken the course, is that the situation?

As for the parking lots, most of them are private property so the actual rules for insurance and licensing don't really apply...just getting there might be illegal...and riding in a quiet neighbourhood is also illegal, but you're right, I don't think anyone would give you a hard time, as long as you are following the traffic laws...stop signs, crosswalks, using signals, etc...but it is still illegal, so use caution...

Basically riding a bike in traffic is similar to driving a car in traffic, you just want to make sure you are seen...that is the big one...most people are not really paying attention, which if you are in a car will end up in a fender bender...but on a bike, it could result in hospital...I usually try not to travel beside a vehicle, whether I think they see me or not...they may assume you have moved on and change lanes right into you without ever seeing you...most people will tell you to ride like you are invisible and people are trying to kill you...it's a little extreme, but it's your life...shoulder checking is the same as a car, if you are changing lanes, turning, etc...you need to do shoulder checks (don't trust your mirrors)...but you also want to shoulder check whenever you come to a stop, or if you loose track of a vehicle that is passing you...you always want to know what is going on around you.   ;)

Check out the website: www.bestbeginnermotorcycles.com

They have lots of great tips for "newbies" and lots of forum conversations about learning to ride...very helpful.   8)

Later.
** Remember, if you're not having fun you're doing it WRONG...**

My Bike...


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Offline lonesoldier84

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 07:03:28 PM »
my input is that if you want to get mobile and learn traffic and 2 wheels at the same time, get a 50cc scooter. you will have a tough time getting over 50kph with any urgency so will have TONS of time to react to everything, and it's not going to be a huge transition from a bicycle. you will get things like balance, braking, and basic cornering down.

ive seen some around town lately (one 50cc yamaha i see every morning on the way to work) and they fit right in. get the right gear, paint the scooter black, and you have a great first machine for never having operated a motorized vehicle before.

plus im sure a used one will be insanely cheap so you can thrash it about and sell it for near what you paid for it in a year.

then upgrade to a motorcycle which will still be a jump and will still have you on the learning curve, but this way you have at least something under your belt so when you start zipping around in traffic you have a basic level of "bike in traffic" skills under your belt.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 07:05:30 PM by lonesoldier84 »

Offline madjak30

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 12:04:23 AM »
I think that is a pretty good suggestion...I've seen 50cc scooters on Kijiji for under $900 recently...it would be a great step up from a bicycle, and way better than walking or taking the bus/transit...

Did they issue you a learners permit when you wrote your test at the DMV?  If so you are a fully licensed scooter rider...my daughter is really excited about being able to ride a scoot at 14 with a learners permit...not quite sure how the insurance would work...but I would check into it...

Good luck.  Later.
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Offline jon

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 12:59:38 PM »
 8)
Hey Fuse,

The 'scooter' suggestion from Lonesoldier84 has good merit.
You could also consider a Honda ct70 or equivalent from the 80's and 90's. These are cheap to buy, maintain and operate. These are low to the ground, street legal....and almost bullet proof.
There are plenty of used scooters available in the area. Would suggest not getting one in prestine nor mint condition, not a classic, nor a unique unit. This type of scooter can be easily lifted into a car trunk or the back of a truck and hauled to quiet parking lots for practise riding.
If and when you have a short list of possible bikes\scooters you are considering - place an update on here and there are prolly a few who might provide recommendations or critiques of certain models/brands.

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Offline Fuse

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2010, 02:20:05 PM »
Thanks for the scooter suggestion. I believe I can actually drive a 49cc without supervision (never figured out the logic behind that though). Funny how I never thought of that as a viable practice option. I'll look into it for sure. I even think there's a rental place for that on Whyte.

I will work with that for now.

I wasn't so much issued a learner's permit for motorcycles... but rather, a road test permit that I never asked for. But given that I did pass the theory, I'm sure I'm allowed to drive (conditions apply).

Thanks a lot guys. You've all been great help. This community thing is certainly a nice feeling. I'll keep posted.


Offline lonesoldier84

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Re: Need experience
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2010, 07:12:21 PM »
It just gets better the deeper in you get. You don't know how good it gets. It gets really damn good.

As for the scooter option, those things are still good fun. I rode a scooter a whole bunch when I started riding on 4 month vacations to India when I was 12 and 13. Went every couple years until I was 22 or so. When I got my motorcycle in 2008, I felt noobish, but not a total noob. The scooter experience did help me. I had already experienced braking and maneuvering through traffic on 2 wheels....and it was INDIAN traffic. Oh man I still remember riding around one night in rush-hour type Indian traffic in the pitch black with no street lights. I can count more than a handful of times that ride I was literally staring into trucker's headlights as they bore down on me. I never rode in the night again in India. Bloody gong show and you can't see a damned thing.

But just don't think a scooter is any less of a ride. The guy I see every morning looks confident and presses through traffic well. I actually like his scooter. It's a black Yamaha with slightly knobbyish tires and his gear is good riding gear. Every time I see him when I'm in my car I actually feel shitty about being in my car and not on the bike. Also worth mentioning: being on a scooter is no excuse not to have proper gloves, jacket, pants, boots.

That aside, just keep in mind, though, that the biggest thing about riding is risk management. If you sustain a higher level of risk by being irresponsible, then you are baiting trouble (for example, never having ridden a motorcycle or driven a car even and jumping into traffic on a big ole cruiser). If you constantly for every minute that you ever spend on 2 wheels sustain the lowest possible level of risk that you can, you will achieve that which every rider seeks to achieve: to be an old fart still riding. So the approach you are taking already has you headed down that path.

It is worth mentioning, though, that I firmly believe I am safer on my motorbike than I am in my car. I am visually aware of everything around me and am hyper vigilant to prevent issues before they spring up. When someone changes into my lane without checking a blind spot, I am already hugging the curb and decelerating before their tires have hit the lane marker. When someone turns out from a parking lot tracking me down in the outside lane, I had been rolling on the throttle already for the 50 previous feet before then so as to clear the zone quickly. Expect and ASSUME trouble, and don't stick around to see how things actually develop. You can squeeze out of every issue you will EVER encounter on the road when on a bike.

A friend of mine who is a rider trainer once told me:

There is no accident a motorcyclist gets into that is not his/her fault. None. Not a one.

And I am inclined to agree with him. No matter the cause, it could have been prevented by assessing the risk, and controlling it. If going 50 through an intersection and getting a left hand turner smashing you could happen, then do 35, not 50. If 35 is too fast, then do 20. (note: being forced to do 20kph through an intersection is pretty rare and would only happen in the event of heavy traffic and terrible visibility so everyone else will probably be pretty slow as well). But say doing 20 would mean the guy behind you is going to ram into your tail, then quickly swerve into the teeny tiny cushion in the cars on your right and slow down, then when the tailgater passes, swing back into that lane again and continue to decelerate. You are a superior road user with the ability to escape in ways cars could never hope to do.

That's just a random example, but I'm just saying I agree with that rider coach's statement. You can always manage and control a situation. You can see it happen before it does. Always. There are a limited number of variables here. Know them and you will be good.

It is possible to cut down risk to the point where it is pretty much negligible. Riding is indeed a safe activity.

One thing that makes me laugh is what people tell you who don't ride. What do they tell new riders or people considering it? It's always the same thing. Always. They say, "Oh you will be safe, I am sure, but everyone AROUND you won't be!!".

Well of course they won't. But it's not that you will be a safe rider like these people say. You will be more than that. You will be truly superior in terms of road going traffic skills over the average motorist.

And add to that you will have shorter braking distances, quicker throttle application, better maneuvreability, and smaller footprint than everyone else on the road. Oh wait, you're getting a cruiser eventually......forget this last paragraph. :P


P.S. The community thing is pretty awesome indeed. You can literally go anywhere in the world on a bike and feel welcomed. When you ride through the middle of absolutely nowhere and meet up with some random people who rode in from some other random place, everyone is sharing the same experience. Hell, even people you meet in the middle of nowhere who don't ride, you feel quite welcomed even then. Motorcycling is just imbued with some beautiful aura or something. It is positive and it just kicks ass. Everyone feels it. Not everyone gets to experience it personally though. You're well on your way there.....just don't rush it. Remember....you want to be an old fart of a rider one day looking back at a lifetime of wicked rides and experiences. I tell myself that every single time I jump in the saddle.

Oh and it is more addictive than crack cocaine fed intravenously. When we're not experiencing it, we're talking about it. And when we're not talking about it, we're thinking about it. :P Haha, it's pretty sweet.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 07:31:46 PM by lonesoldier84 »